Women in Cyan

Re: Women in Cyan

Postby azel » Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:41 pm

We like our CYAN games just the way they are. Go destroy some other game company with your nonsense.
Last edited by azel on Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:13 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Women in Cyan

Postby belford » Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:55 pm

*That's* trolling.
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Re: Women in Cyan

Postby Yali » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:26 pm

Myst has always been great for female characters. Cyan has always written good characters regardless of gender. Sometimes when certain devs want to be political or inclusive they have a tendency to have "tough" female leads which is often just a poorly written female doing "empowering" things, however the Millers are masterful story crafters and always shy away from injecting politics and trends into their games, rather they write *actual* humans with depth, personality, and a reason to exist in the context of the greater narrative. Take Catherine for example who is a caring mother, a rebel leader who defied her overlord Gehn and led her people to a new Age, a masterful dreamer and writer with a sharp intellect. Reading Catherine's Riven journal is the perfect example of how she is an amazingly crafted female character. Or Yeesha for example who is flawed, sees herself as a messiah figure and tries to resist the temptation of turning into her brothers. In Myst V we see her conflicted mind as she realizes her destiny but also struggles to temper her power in light of her past, the mistakes she made and her feelings of righteousness.

Cyan doesn't write female characters for the sake of empowering females out of some kind of feminist ideology, they write three-dimensional characters with complexity and nuance that happen to be female - and treat them with the same amount of value as their male counterparts, which is ultimately the biggest feminist statement they could make. This is why I love Cyan. In fact Robyn Miller even said a while back that he hates art that pushes an agenda or is concerned with telling the viewer something directly, rather he likes art that makes the viewer (or player) entertain a variety of perceptions. I think this is the most healthy way to create any type of media because it makes the world that you are building so much more nuanced and real and it also respects both the material within the work and the viewer equally.
Last edited by Yali on Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:12 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Women in Cyan

Postby Tai'lahr » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:39 pm

Well said, Yali.
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Re: Women in Cyan

Postby Fay » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:43 am

Yali, you perfectly said the words I was trying to conjure up as to why complaining about the Myst games female characters is just mindboggling to me.
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Re: Women in Cyan

Postby Tomala » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:24 am

azel wrote:We like our CYAN games just the way they are. Go destroy some other game company with your nonsense.


Well said, even if it took you a few tries...

Yali wrote:Myst has always been great for female characters. Cyan has always written good characters regardless of gender. Sometimes when certain devs want to be political or inclusive they have a tendency to have "tough" female leads which is often just a poorly written female doing "empowering" things, however the Millers are masterful story crafters and always shy away from injecting politics and trends into their games, rather they write *actual* humans with depth, personality, and a reason to exist in the context of the greater narrative. Take Catherine for example who is a caring mother, a rebel leader who defied her overlord Gehn and led her people to a new Age, a masterful dreamer and writer with a sharp intellect. Reading Catherine's Riven journal is the perfect example of how she is an amazingly crafted female character. Or Yeesha for example who is flawed, sees herself as a messiah figure and tries to resist the temptation of turning into her brothers. In Myst V we see her conflicted mind as she realizes her destiny but also struggles to temper her power in light of her past, the mistakes she made and her feelings of righteousness.

Cyan doesn't write female characters for the sake of empowering females out of some kind of feminist ideology, they write three-dimensional characters with complexity and nuance that happen to be female - and treat them with the same amount of value as their male counterparts, which is ultimately the biggest feminist statement they could make. This is why I love Cyan. In fact Robyn Miller even said a while back that he hates art that pushes an agenda or is concerned with telling the viewer something directly, rather he likes art that makes the viewer (or player) entertain a variety of perceptions. I think this is the most healthy way to create any type of media because it makes the world that you are building so much more nuanced and real and it also respects both the material within the work and the viewer equally.


Even better said.
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Re: Women in Cyan

Postby belford » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:50 am

We like our CYAN games just the way they are.


...Constantly evolving and trying new directions. :)

Cyan doesn't write female characters for the sake of empowering females out of some kind of feminist ideology, they write three-dimensional characters with complexity and nuance that happen to be female


Saying that a complex character can be female *is* ideology. It's also true. No surprise there.
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Re: Women in Cyan

Postby AdamJohnso » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:30 pm

azel wrote:We like our CYAN games just the way they are. Go destroy some other game company with your nonsense.


Get outta here, I'm the only troll allowed on these forearms :roll:
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Re: Women in Cyan

Postby Tomala » Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:23 pm

AdamJohnso wrote:Get outta here, I'm the only troll allowed on these forearms :roll:


Ahem... :ugeek:
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Re: Women in Cyan

Postby AdamJohnso » Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:50 am

Pardon. Team OverlordTomala and Hoikarse are the only trolls allowed on these forearms. :twisted:
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Re: Women in Cyan

Postby Tai'lahr » Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:31 am

Tomala wrote:
AdamJohnso wrote:Get outta here, I'm the only troll allowed on these forearms :roll:


Ahem... :ugeek:

I considered correcting him, Tomala, but was afraid I'd make a misstep in the wording and end up getting trolled for it by one or both of you. ;)
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Re: Women in Cyan

Postby Rudolfson » Sat Aug 27, 2016 1:35 am

I know many women, more than men, that have a passion for MYST. Somehow it is me that have been hanging on the mystonline forum while for instance my wife, who spends thousands of hours more that I do on internet social media, would never register on a games forum for anything.
But she does ask me now and then over the last 20 years about what is up with MYST sequels. It was she who bought Riven on release. I was more reluctant thinking we ought to have a computer that could run it first :)
So for interest and passion for these games it looks like it is me judging from visits to spiders blog and other forums, but that is not the truth.
On the other hand I agree with most of that the topic starter has to say in a general sense.
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Re: Women in Cyan

Postby Ehren » Sat Aug 27, 2016 1:19 pm

Tomala wrote:
AdamJohnso wrote:Get outta here, I'm the only troll allowed on these forearms :roll:


Ahem... :ugeek:


New topic: Women in trolling, blah blah, emotional enough?
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Re: Women in Cyan

Postby badsykes » Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:42 am

Well ...
I am a male.An emotional BUT in process of integrating emotions...I am more whole than a couple of years back.
I played one chapter of Life Is strange and i can say that is about isolation, misunderstanding of the teens, alienation ... This game is a mirror to big young people on our planet..I felt the past self when i played Life is Strange, part of me resonated with that game..A need for very emotional game is a sign that your emotion are chaotic and they may want to be expressed in a safe for you without interacting directly with people..You may find yourself caught in the middle..On one hand you have this emotions may or may not know how to control but they still rise and on the other hand you can't really express them fully in society for various reasons.
Some reasons may be punishment,shame, fear etc.I would suggest you empower yourself.Feed your inner self.An empowered being is in auto-feeding mode.An empower being don't need atention from other to feel about themselves, to be validated..Atention is energy that feeds you.A star singing in front of 10.000 people get atention...The energy of 10.000 people..Some people equate this atention with "normal" way of living..The normal of happiness..The auto-feed mode means that you clear all the fears, clutter, shames, integrate emotion etc from your mind and let inner feed automatically all the in every moment.All the fears, shames are like clouds (some are darker than others) that cover your inner sunlight..The inner sun always shine but the "clouds" acummulated over the years cover the sun so you can't his rays...People that don't feel this rays search for outside source of feeding! Lovers, too much social stuff, kids etc and they become addicted and dependant on other "attention" to feed them...Kids are pure and their sun shine brightly because they have no so many clouds.Old people gather around them and feed on them...The young kid sun radiate and old people like it..
Womans are not teached a course on emotions when they are young..School and parents teach all sorts of more or less usefull things but courses on emotions is not teached..Teachers are afraid to deal with emotions themselves..The education system is pretty dysfunctional on this matter.The people running the education system are not dealing with their own emotions..Like sex subject ..emotion subject is very taboo like...Adults in general and old people are afraid of this subject...
The only way remaining is to learn to integrate your emotions by getting off road...Don't expect mother, teacher, friend to teach you step by step like school just begin to learn it yourself..You can use others to mirror your progress...
For example if someone will come to you and say that your expletive is crap and is angry and also you get angry this means that his anger triggered something latent in you that already was seeded long ago.Your anger will be genuine so the person gave you an oportunity to release the anger by exposing it by providing a mirror...
Boys that play agressive game have already agressivity seeded in them..Agressive games are a mirror of their inner...There are 2 sides of playing that i discovered..
1. playing unconsciosly like you smoking cigarettes daily because you are a "smoker".."Smoking" games daily OR
2. playing consciously some games that help you bring out emotions...Consciously playing the thirst is consumed and aleviated on the long term...


Hope it helps you a little bit...
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Re: Women in Cyan

Postby lofll » Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:48 pm

I disagree with just about everything in the OP.

The premise that Cyan games are somehow lacking in emotions is false. These games are very emotional, even though you don't typically interact directly with other characters until the climax of the game. You seem to be completely discounting the emotional conflicts in the stories you slowly uncover over the course of the games.

Then, you are suggesting a change to the core gameplay loop of these games which would change the genre. Once you bring full-fledged character interactions in, now you've either got a silent protagonist that sticks out like a sore thumb (destroying immersion) or you've got a really complicated dialog system like starship titanic or something and then - it's not a Cyan game anymore. You want "more emotion" - okay, but what do you actually DO? What's the game? Myst, Riven, Obduction could be made into purely narrative experiences if you took out the puzzles but... Where's the game? What's the challenge? These elements are part of gaming as a medium, but you seem to think they are somehow related to gender. I don't think you could be more wrong.

Finally you quote this irrelevant argument about female representation. What does an argument about women characters have to do with a company that makes self-insert games with roughly equal numbers of male and female NPCs?

But, even if you apply the argument to gaming as a whole - it's based on a false premise. That guardian article cites one of several studies that make the completely false claim that gaming is actually a majority female demographic. There would be nothing wrong with that, but it's just flat out false. They get those numbers by counting up all the people who have ever pulled up words with friends on their phone once, or ever played a facebook game. Meanwhile games that are played by people with more than a passing interest in the hobby are usually played mostly by males. Often times at a ratio of 2:1, 5:1 or higher, but it depends on the game. Anyway, even the claims about female characters being underrepresented are wrong or at least exaggerated. They can skew their studies in whatever way suits their agenda, but probably about half of the games *I* play have a female PC option.
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