Let's talk about the numbering system (spoilers)

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Re: Let's talk about the numbering system (spoilers)

Postby Altairien » Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:14 am

The thing most people miss is actually explicitly stated. Remember...
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Re: Let's talk about the numbering system (spoilers)

Postby Talashar » Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:39 am

I sat down and figured out the system as soon as I found the garage machine: I'd been waiting for this! :D But I regret never having to translate back from Villein numerals and was disappointed by the 15 solution. I don't really understand the point of the autocorrect mechanism, which mainly seems like it encourages players to avoid learning the Villein numbers until it's too late.

I wonder if larger powers of 4 continue spiraling clockwise around the center, or if the 3x3 squares form units by themselves, so that a different principle is used for larger numbers.
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Re: Let's talk about the numbering system (spoilers)

Postby Mowog » Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:49 pm

Aha. Got it.

The subtle advice is: that was it. Don't overthink.


Overthink, again. :shock: I seem to work that way.

Cheers,

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Re: Let's talk about the numbering system (spoilers)

Postby Erik » Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:32 am

I also was surprised that I couldn't get back to the machine in the garage when I really needed it! I did want to learn the numbering system, but I was just postponing it so far.
I connected the bridges in Maray with the five digit panels just by trial and error. In retrospective, that was the moment I should have gotten back to the garage to learn the system properly. :P Unfortunately I'd only made a photo of the empty worksheet.

Stuck in Maray I tried to learn the system based on trying symbols and seeing which pod appeared, but I failed to make the final connection.
[Reveal] Spoiler:
On the internet I found that you just shift the symbol to control the 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th digit.

After that it all made sense and I still liked translating the numbers to symbols for the remainder of the puzzles.
And once I understood the system, the locks for the bridges suddenly made sense as well. :lol: :lol:
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Re: Let's talk about the numbering system (spoilers)

Postby Chessrook44 » Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:56 am

I went ahead and went through the process of figuring it out myself, so I could actually figure out the numbers from Villein-Human and Human-Villein.

Think of the pattern as five collections of five dots, like what appears on a die (one dot in the center, and four surrounding it on each corner). Each collection is a multiple of four.
For a 0, it is blank. For a 1, there is 1 mark in the center five. For a 2, two marks. For a 3, three marks.
A four, however, would appear in the top five, as one mark.
Five would be a 4 mark and a 1 mark. Six a 4 mark and a 2 mark. Seven a 4 mark and a 3 mark.
Eight however, is two fours. So you put two marks in the top five.

This continues around. The right five is multiples of sixteen. Bottom five multiples of 64. And left five multiples of 256.
From what I can tell, the direction these marks point doesn't matter. A single mark can point up and left or down and right from the center, and it will still be one of that item.

Once you wrap your mind around this, you can easily figure out what the various numbers are. For example...

Say you have a symbol with one mark in left, two in bottom, one in right, one in top, and two in middle.
Put in the multiples and you have 256+64+64+16+4+2 = 406

You can also do this backwards. All you need to do is find the largest available numbers, subtract, find out how many you get of each, and there you go.
For example, say you want to put in 233.
256 is too big for that, so you go down.
233-64=169
169-64=105
105-64=41
41-16=25
25-16=9
9-4=5
5-4=1
1

Ergo, for this number, you'd put 0 marks in the left group, 3 marks in the bottom group, 2 marks in the right group, 2 marks in the top group, and 1 mark in the middle group.

Hopefully I gave a good, accurate description. The only way I could have done it better, I feel, is if I had pictures to demonstrate.
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Re: Let's talk about the numbering system (spoilers)

Postby Altairien » Mon Sep 05, 2016 7:00 am

I found going to base4 easy, although I'm sure I took more steps than others. Since my background is computer engineering, I'm used to converting to hex and binary anyway so I just went that route making it trival to get to base4. Definitely easier than D'ni base5 numbers.

I'll show each step explicitly, but of course much of this was done in my head in a split second. I only wrote down some of the numbers on my notepad so I didn't have to do the conversions again on later play throughs.

Using the a number from the previous post (406):
Code: Select all
406
=  1     9     6 (base16 aka hex)
= ‭01  1001  0110 (directly convert hex to base2 aka binary)
= 01 10 01 01 10 (separate binary into pairs for direct conversion to base4)
=  1  2  1  1  2 (base4 solution)

Of course, this really wasn't necessary for any puzzles except the pods since the doors only require the most basic knowledge of the input device (no numbers) and the bridges only require a basic understanding of where number symbols are placed since the solution is always the same repeated number. Further, the pods were limited to 2 digit base4 numbers amounting to very low value base10 numbers making them even easier.

Code: Select all
13,12
=     D,   C (hex step is really unnecessary for such small values)
=  1101, 1100 (base2)
= 11 01,11 00 (pairs)
=  3  1, 3  0 (base4)

Anyone having difficulty converting to base4 could just use the Windows calculator in Programmer mode, convert the base10 number directly to binary, then remember that in base4 00 = 0, 01 = 1, 10 = 2, and 11 = 3.
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Re: Let's talk about the numbering system (spoilers)

Postby Anya » Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:12 pm

I've drawn the numbers using different colours to make the connections clear. if anyone is interested, the picture is here: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/7656 ... pid=306760
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Re: Let's talk about the numbering system (spoilers)

Postby TheScar(.fr) » Wed Sep 14, 2016 4:43 am

There's also a very nice Excel file there, on myst-aventure.com (3rd spoiler in the 4th post from Grover).
:arrow: Enter in the yellow cases the number you want to convert, and the result will be written in the green cases.

(French file, but no translation needed for numbers ! :D )
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Re: Let's talk about the numbering system (spoilers)

Postby Annabelle » Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:21 pm

Some of you are really into it! That's fine! :lol:

I prefer my villain master key which works quite everywhere. I'm not going to try to understand villein numerals, the patterns are going too fast on the screen and I don't want to hear and look at the creepy you-know-who faceshifter, it gives me chills.

villain master key:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
You just need to draw a bridge (4-3-4 dots connection, SW-NE orientation). Always the same layout for every bridge except the last one for which I already explained the way to tackle the first section of it in another post, the you do the 4-3-4 SW-NE pattern for the remaining of the bridge.
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Re: Let's talk about the numbering system (spoilers)

Postby Bryan B » Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:41 am

Did anyone figure out where to use the number from the front of the Obduction T-shirt yet?
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Re: Let's talk about the numbering system (spoilers)

Postby Marten » Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:18 pm

There's a very easy way to do the numbers, once you figure out that all numbers are an assembly of just 3 patterns, drawn starting from different points on the grid. (Erik referenced this earlier).
[Reveal] Spoiler: Cheat Sheet to solving Villein Numbers
Taking Anya's approach of colors, I've tried to simplify the concept this way:
Image
There are only three symbols. There are 5 positions from which you can draw a symbol. Here, I've used colors to reference the starting point of the symbols for each position.

[Reveal] Spoiler: Instructions to draw any number
  • Determine the highest number in the chart that is less than or equal to your target value.
  • Draw that symbol.
  • Subtract that number from your target.
  • Repeat until you reach zero.

[Reveal] Spoiler: Example: How to draw 456 in Villein
  • 256 is highest number <= 456.
  • Draw 256 (that's a 1 in the purple starting position).
  • Subtract: 456-256 = 200
  • 192 is the highest number <= 200.
  • Draw 192 (a 3 in the orange position)
  • Subtract: 200-192=8
  • 8 is the highest number <= 8.
  • Draw 8 (2 in the red position).
  • Done.

[Reveal] Spoiler: An explanation of how Villein numbers are used for doors and bridges
Everything Villein is based in fours and fives.

Doors are very simple - a door has 4 states. Fully filled (3), fully empty (0), and two intermediate states (1 and 2).

A bridge is like five doors in sequence. Each segment can be fully formed (3), missing (0), and again there are two intermediate states (1 and 2). Each of the pattern starting points from the cheat sheet (above) controls one segment of bridge.
Last edited by Marten on Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Let's talk about the numbering system (spoilers)

Postby Annabelle » Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:50 pm

Mouski explained it to me in French so I should be good now!

I'll try to see Caroline in Maray. I just did the Mayor but I kind of use a ... already given solution. This time around I'll find Caroline on my own :D
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Re: Let's talk about the numbering system (spoilers)

Postby Tahgtahv » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:45 pm

Bryan B wrote:Did anyone figure out where to use the number from the front of the Obduction T-shirt yet?

I didn't realize there was a number on the front, so I had to go look for myself. If I've read it right, it's 33321 or decimal 345, and I don't believe that's actually used anywhere.
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Re: Let's talk about the numbering system (spoilers)

Postby Magic88889 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:05 pm

Yeah the number on the shirt can't be entered in the pod system. There's that missing dot, and number needs that dot. Would have been a nice easter egg.

On the bridges, can somebody explain to me how that's supposed to work. I learned the number system, but for those bridges I could never figure out what to do. I ended up just playing around and got through them, but it would be nice to know what I missed, 'cause it's bugging me.
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Re: Let's talk about the numbering system (spoilers)

Postby Tahgtahv » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:38 pm

Not sure what I was thinking when I calculated that number. Pretty sure 33321 is the correct number on the shirt, but it equals 1017, not 345.

For the bridges, each segment corresponds to a bridge piece. Other than that, it pretty much works like the doors, where you get: empty, bone, forcefield, solid. Either of the latter two can be walked on, making the bridges one of the easiest puzzles in the game.
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