[Spoilers] Endings: Bad, Good, and BEST.

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Re: [Spoilers] Endings: Bad, Good, and BEST.

Postby Tahgtahv » Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:15 pm

I kind of wish they could go somewhere as well. It's not like there's any in game trickery going on (*cough* SPOILER ALERT - the imager room and generator room in Myst share the same physical space *cough*). where the other side of the tunnel is another part of the world you can visit. There's large sections of nothingness (I assume) behind most of these rock piles. Granted, I'm being a good boy this time around and not actually looking in the game files, so I can't be *sure*, but it' would be silly to to have anything extra. It's the same thing with underground really. The terrain is relatively flat, and obviously there's no point in having something the player could never see.

I think with CW's vault, that's mainly an excuse to control the angle for the FMV. I would've liked to be able to explore it as well, but it makes sense from both a gameplay and story perspective (CW isn't very trusting of others)
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Re: [Spoilers] Endings: Bad, Good, and BEST.

Postby Annabelle » Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:16 pm

Morgon wrote:
belford wrote:
I'm going with that implication: the crater in Soria is the result of the war, not its cause.


I'm with you in that belford. The destroyed Soria was caused by the Mofang weapon that was swapped back immediately by the polyarch of the Arai once it got swapped to Kaptar by the Mofang. Apparently it was the plan of the Mofang to destroy all the other main spheres by swapping the weapons there but some of the Mofang didn't want to participate and warned the other races. Instead they set up watchers (the polyarch, C.W., one of the Villein) at the ambassador seeds to Soria to immediately swap back the weapon once the Mofang try to swap them to a sphere.

You can experience the dreadful consequences of the Mofang weapon yourself if you get close to the Mofang device in the Soria swap on Maray before disabling it with the blue beam (save before getting close to it :D ).


See that for me it's all assumptions. You have four species living in harmony, they must all keep the equilibrium in order to survive. Why would a specie become hostile towards the others? There must be a reason. Having no food supply that's enough. The crater in Soria is the cause of the war, not its result. It's a meteorite crash. I'm ready to consider your assumption but refer me to the proper journal that said: "the Mofangs tried to swap bombs to other spheres in order to gain control" (The only way I could have missed that would have been "lost in translation" literally because I've seen some differences between English version (original) and French version (the one I'm playing), one difference that I can think of is a HUGE key element also... :roll: :lol:

---

BTW, I don't know how can one achieve the Steam achievement in Maray where you get the bomb to explode but "survive" and water the Tree. That's beyond me... You have to be real quick building the bridge there. And if you try a trick like me to tickle the bomb and run away going back to the main entrance, on your return, surprise! the bomb never exploded so you're back at step 1 and don't even try to go back to cryogenic facilities, the door is shut down right after your passage so you're there with the bomb. (I'm playing the GOG's version but I'm curious on how to perform that trick...)
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Re: [Spoilers] Endings: Bad, Good, and BEST.

Postby Altairien » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:27 pm

Annabelle wrote:See that for me it's all assumptions. You have four species living in harmony, they must all keep the equilibrium in order to survive. Why would a specie become hostile towards the others? There must be a reason. Having no food supply that's enough. The crater in Soria is the cause of the war, not its result. It's a meteorite crash. I'm ready to consider your assumption but refer me to the proper journal that said: "the Mofangs tried to swap bombs to other spheres in order to gain control" (The only way I could have missed that would have been "lost in translation" literally because I've seen some differences between English version (original) and French version (the one I'm playing), one difference that I can think of is a HUGE key element also... :roll: :lol:

The simplest, most obvious argument against the meteorite theory is that a meteorite couldn't penetrate the sphere membrane. Any meteorite contacting the membrane would've just been instantly transported to the exact opposite side of the membrane.

Now on to game journal explanations of what happened. I'll set aside the why for now.

I quoted the precise journal that states at a high level the plan of action for when the Mofang swap one of their WMDs into another sphere (see 17138AH). I'm not sure if something has been lost in translation, but that line written by Josef states the plan in a single sentence. For details of how this plan was implemented, just see any one of the identical war room documents (see this to review outside of game).

  1. The Kaptar WMD got immediately swapped back by the Polyarch Remainer as outlined in the war document. That WMD destroyed the Soria sphere and the Mofang located there. It also apparently destroyed the WMD destined for Hunrath since that swap never occurred (see 3).
  2. The Maray WMD was also swapped in. You can even see the seed swap device sitting right next to the WMD. The Villein guarding the swap point were unable to swap it back or destroy it, but they were eventually able to kill the Mofang that came with the WMD, at the cost of their own lives, leaving us to destroy the WMD. Note that destroying the WMD also destroys the Mofang's seed swap device next to it.
  3. The Hunrath WMD never got swapped in. The swap point in Hunrath, in the tunnel on the other side of the river (that's the swap we use to get to Soria), wasn't used. C.W., the Hunrath Remainer, would've said something in his note to Farley (in the mailbox) or us if that had occurred. Instead, he's "perplexed" because nothing has happened and nobody has returned. 5 days later he leaves his post and starts working on his own plan to swap back to Earth. He assumes everyone else died.
Btw, it's entirely possible to get close enough to the Maray WMD to get the Steam achievement while not setting it off. I did exactly this the first time. Later I had to reload a copied game and return to that point to experience that particular ending.
Last edited by Altairien on Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Spoilers] Endings: Bad, Good, and BEST.

Postby Annabelle » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:37 pm

Thank you very much Altairien!

The translation of the journal has been horrendously done!!!

I would never had come to the same conclusions reading it in English. In French we just understand there's a conflict going on with the Mofangs but there's no information whatsoever about swapping bombs between spheres...

Wow!!! :lol: :? :roll: :shock: :o ;)
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Re: [Spoilers] Endings: Bad, Good, and BEST.

Postby Altairien » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:42 pm

Annabelle wrote:Thank you very much Altairien!

The translation of the journal has been horrendously done!!!

I would never had come to the same conclusions reading it in English. In French we just understand there's a conflict going on with the Mofangs but there's no information whatsoever about swapping bombs between spheres...

Wow!!! :lol: :? :roll: :shock: :o ;)

You're welcome. :) Yeah, the whole "swapping the weapons in to the other spheres" is really important to the story.
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Re: [Spoilers] Endings: Bad, Good, and BEST.

Postby Annabelle » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:11 pm

Échange = "exchange" but also in a certain way a "swap"

But reading, "un échange" without any context, I couldn't imagine any "weapon swap". And since all what we hear and read is that Humans want to transfer somewhere else well... exchange could be the word. :lol: They should have emphasised on the "armement" (armament in English).

That's the thing with English & French they are so alike that we get confused easily: take any word in English, change one letter, put an accentuation, add or substract one letter, you get a French word and vice versa (or even don't change any letter, the word is English & French) but when you mine down on the definition(s) that's where you understand they are 2 different languages with "almost" the same vocabulary.
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Re: [Spoilers] Endings: Bad, Good, and BEST.

Postby BrettM » Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:33 pm

Though the Mofang could not have been motivated by a meteorite strike causing starvation, I find it hard to believe they were simply a bunch of genocidal, xenophobic maniacs determined to wipe out everyone else just because they could. Outside of bad comic books and wartime propaganda against the enemy du jour, conflicts have more complex origins. It's too bad that Josef took the book that described the history of the conflict to the pods with him.

I wonder if perhaps the Mofang had gotten wind of CW's idea for swapping Hunrath back to Earth? Given that Earth/Soria were paired worlds in the original swap, a re-swap would almost certainly force the Mofang's sphere back to their homeworld. They might well have regarded this as a death sentence and been afraid that the humans would decide to implement this plan without any concern for the consequences to the Mofang. (I'm pretty sure that CW didn't give a fig about what happened to any of the other spheres as long as he achieved his dream.) Fear might have been the seed that grew into aggressive action. The WMD deliveries looked like suicide missions to me, which smacks of desperation.

On another note, how DID poor CW, given his mobility problems and the general lockdown of Hunrath, get from the cave back to his vault? I assume that he went through the community center (somehow locking the doors behind him as he went to maintain the lockdown). But how did he get across the stream?

The Villein thought it wise to leave three of their people out of stasis, which proved to be just barely sufficient. Two died and it was a miracle that the third remained alive and conscious at least long enough to start the revival process. (I hope the people coming out of stasis managed to save him.) Yet the humans thought that leaving one disabled guy with no backup at all was a dandy way to protect their sphere.

Yes, I realize that a surviving human backup would have made the services of the newcomer -- us -- unnecessary. But it would have been better to leave a backup and find a way to kill him off than it was to use an Idiot Plot to circumvent the problem. The whole plan to put everyone into stasis in Maray was already bordering on Idiot Plot territory, though there doesn't seem to have been any other option for getting all those NPCs off-stage to set up the situation faced by the newcomer.
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Re: [Spoilers] Endings: Bad, Good, and BEST.

Postby Tahgtahv » Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:43 pm

Well...there is that rowboat sitting on the river there. Far be it for us to be able to use it though. Aside from that, Farley's back door only seems like it's (un)lockable from the outside so it's hard to say there, but we know CW did at least leave a letter in her mailbox. Let's just assume the town in "reality" was wider than 700ft across, and well, when you do that really there's no point in contemplating further anything having to do with geography.
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Re: [Spoilers] Endings: Bad, Good, and BEST.

Postby Altairien » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:21 pm

BrettM wrote:But how did he get across the stream?

The boat. (edit: Tahgtahv beat me on that one)

BrettM wrote:The Villein thought it wise to leave three of their people out of stasis, which proved to be just barely sufficient. Two died and it was a miracle that the third remained alive and conscious at least long enough to start the revival process. (I hope the people coming out of stasis managed to save him.) Yet the humans thought that leaving one disabled guy with no backup at all was a dandy way to protect their sphere.

Maray was the priority because of the pods, thus more guards. While the goal was to save all the spheres from the attack, Hunrath and Kaptar could've been lost as long as Maray was saved. Leaving more Remainers on Hunrath would potentially be throwing away extra lives especially since Hunrath had exactly one way in from Soria once the trees route was shut down.
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Re: [Spoilers] Endings: Bad, Good, and BEST.

Postby Tahgtahv » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:14 am

It's unclear what moving a seed would do. In the game, all the ambassador seeds are exactly relative to the mother seed, and as such they share the same coordinates in both worlds. While the seed to Soria is in a remote location of Hunrath, it's unclear whether the Mofang had the capability of swapping in a sphere to an arbitrary location. That said, as Brett points out Maray would've been (and clearly was) the main focus of their attack.
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Re: [Spoilers] Endings: Bad, Good, and BEST.

Postby Anya » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:33 am

So how many endings are there? I've only found three.
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Re: [Spoilers] Endings: Bad, Good, and BEST.

Postby Mac_Fife » Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:24 am

Tahgtahv wrote:It's unclear what moving a seed would do.

Isn't it the case that when the tree produces a new seed (as when a new obductee is about to be taken) that the Hunrath residents moved that seed to the entrance area to give everyone a consistent experience? It may not be quite the same thing, but I expect that the seed swap machines could be moved - it only seems like their sphere size is predetermined.
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Re: [Spoilers] Endings: Bad, Good, and BEST.

Postby Bryan B » Wed Sep 14, 2016 7:25 am

Anya wrote:So how many endings are there? I've only found three.


Me too. I am up to 3 currently. That is to say I saw 3 full credit rolls.
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Re: [Spoilers] Endings: Bad, Good, and BEST.

Postby Marten » Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:03 pm

Not going to bother with spoiler tags here...

The interesting thing here is that C.W. is not really a villain. I've seen some people say, "I didn't trust him," but I never got the impression that's quite the opinion we're supposed to form of him. I think it would be better to say, "I didn't trust his judgement," because in the end, that is his failing. As the player, you're supposed to deduce this from the clues.

Here's some things we know and that we can guess at:
  • Cecil (C.W.) was abducted in 1870. Caroline Farley, in 1983. Very different time periods.
  • His abduction separated him from his family, leaving behind a 7-year old daughter.
  • We don't know exactly when he arrived in Hunrath but judging by his skill with technologies that came after his time (electricity and video recorders), it was probably some time ago.
  • From the guest book and from Farley's audio tape we are meant to understand two key points: First, people who arrive in Hunrath do not arrive in the same linear order of the dates from which they are abducted. Second, many who were abducted recognized that they were at risk of death at the moment of their taking. From these two critical details, I believe we are expected to wonder if there is some sort of divine order or plan occurring with the abductions.
  • The seed board raises some questions that tie into the differing times of the abductions. "What happens at fruition? Swap where? Home? When? May be dead?" (emphasis mine)
  • Farley's journal (in her Vault) explains a dream she had... which she also attributes to the Arai. It explains her philosophy of seeds, and how dispersal fits into the (Darwinian) model of species fitness. She concludes that she needs to convince C.W. to abandon his battery plan.
  • C.W. doesn't know what happened to everyone but believes them all to be dead. He knows deep inside that there is something wrong with this conclusion - as he wrote in the letter left at Farley's: "I am still alive, and that both supremely perplexes me, and gives me some portion of hope."
  • It's unclear how much time passed between the writing of the letter and the player's arrival in Hunrath, though probably not too long (it's unclear how long the stalemate in Maray could have been ongoing).
  • What IS clear is that in C.W.'s "contemplation" within his vault, he has reached the decision that he is going home and is willing to abandon everyone else despite that nagging feeling of "hope" that he is wrong about their fates.

So that brings us to C.W.'s character flaw: He's close-minded. Doesn't consider all possibilities, doesn't think outside of the box. He'd convinced himself that there were only two possible outcomes - victory and defeat. He never considered that there might be a stalemate in Maray and that his friends, those "real fine folk" he speaks so reverently of might need his help. Convinced that he has lost his Hunrath family, all he can think of is returning back to his original family on Earth, and that is the goal he puts you, the player, to accomplishing.

And it's crystal clear that C.W. hasn't answered that question that Farley raised on her board. "If the sphere returns home, to when will the sphere return?" It seems obvious that one seed swap is not going to take everyone back to their original homes, and if indeed many recognize that they were in mortal danger at the time they were taken, who in their right mind would WANT to go back to that same point in time?

And of course, if none of this has occurred to you, there's one BIG final clue - one final warning that C.W. has not considered all of the possible outcomes of the action he's about to undertake.

When you're there in Soria, staring at the smoking crater of what was, turn and look out at the horizon. And think back to what Farley said.

"It saved us."

There is a divine plan. You are a part of it. You are here to break the stalemate - not just the stalemate in the Mofang War, but also the stalemate between the plan and those who resist it. Resisting the plan thus far has only brought suffering - if things had gone according to the plan, the swap would have already taken place, bringing all four races to their new destination. No Mofang War. No more being trapped in a cell.

That is why there is no Tweek-ish "Third Path." There is only resistance and acceptance of the plan. It is your destiny to make it happen.
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Re: [Spoilers] Endings: Bad, Good, and BEST.

Postby BrettM » Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:09 pm

Nice analysis, Marten. The one thing I would really quibble with is the "No Mofang War" consequence if the plan had not been resisted by construction of the Bleeder. We really don't know the motivations of the Mofang or the history of the conflict, given that Josef took the record of this to the pods with him. If the Mofang were truly xenophobic or had some peculiar ideas about inter-racial competition to prove fitness, then the war might well have started after the four spheres had been moved to their final destination if the plan had not been delayed by the Bleeder. With no possibility of protective lockdowns, the carnage in that case could have been tremendous.

For that matter, we can't even be sure that a four-way competition to see which race came out on top wasn't the purpose of the plan in the first place. One would hope not, given that allowing the Trees to come to natural fruition was the only viable option, but we really don't know. The plan appeared to be benevolent, but that appearance might have been superficial, and the actions of the Mofang might have met with the approval of whatever agency was responsible for the plan.
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