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The Gauntlet and the Maze

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:14 am
by MystBodger
I'm finally coming to terms with the whole game and have run it though to the ending(s) five times now but two locations are troublesome. The worst is the Gauntlet -- it appears to have no logic behind it or if it does it is either too subtle for my alleged mind or the logic is defective. Having tried the methods described in several walthroughs I find that there is one surefire way to get through for me:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
from the 'shell' with three swap machines use the closest machine to the other 'shell' cross the bridge and use the other swapper, then repeat 'N' times until the wall at the back of the small 'shell' disappears.
Nothing else I've tried seems to work as reliably or as quickly although some permutations will result in one entrance to the big 'shell' being blocked by a sandstone wall. What am I missing? Is there some underlying logic I'm missing or is it just a matter of
[Reveal] Spoiler:
repeating enough swaps, even the identical ones, until something good happens
?

As for the maze, that seems to be dead simple, if laborious. I've noticed posts about there being 5 rotating bits but
[Reveal] Spoiler:
in my experience there are at least six or seven that I've used and most likely there must be eight
. In any case I've always managed to rearrange things suitably to get to the places I need to. Has anybody actually mapped this out?

Re: The Gauntlet and the Maze

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:23 am
by Acorn1
First time through I got horribly stuck at what you call the
[Reveal] Spoiler:
wall at the back of the small shell
and couldn't see what I was doing wrong, or why
[Reveal] Spoiler:
repeating the swap
eventually opened it up, though this is what I did after puzzling over some walkthroughs.

Re: The Gauntlet and the Maze

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:17 am
by belford
I'm not sure how to explain the logic. It's physically as straightforward as it could be -- nothing rotates or moves behind your back(*). It's only confusing because you're down inside it instead of seeing the whole shebang. You could make a model by cutting out circles of paper and follow along as you play.

(* Of course, I could say the same about the Rubik's Cube! But Obduction's puzzles are not nearly that complicated.)

I've noticed posts about there being 5 rotating bits


There are five. Four begin in Maray and one begins in Hunrath. Since you're swapping pairs between Maray and Hunrath, there's nowhere else that a sixth could come from.

Re: The Gauntlet and the Maze

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:52 am
by MystBodger
If that is truly the case, and it makes sense the way you state it, then
[Reveal] Spoiler:
the 'extra' piece must not be the same every time. I've certainly entered the maze when there was no 'straight' piece and other times I've had to exchange a '135-degree' bend for a '90-degree' bend
I guess that I'll have to pay more attention and record every detail the next time through. Looking at it my way, we need to account for there being multiple 'swap machines' since each of the four visible pieces has its own swapper attached to its basement. The stated logic of the game is that there are two different spherical parts which get exchanged when a seed is prodded by the machine. If this is true, shouldn't there be a piece out in some location, which we may or may not be able to see, for each rotating piece in the maze? We can see five pieces but that doesn't account for the other three spheres which balance out the equation.

Oh, BTW, the swapping logic seems to be wonky in another point in the game. When you get
[Reveal] Spoiler:
to the last world, the melty black one via the swapper along the river, and if you go back through the tree to Hunrath and return to the location along the river you will find a black melty sphere which has been swapped but it has no swapping seed in it to account for its presence. In every other case in the game the swapping is bidirectional and can be repeated over and over but this one can't be.
A design oversight or some story subtlety which I don't understand? There are many parts of the story which still escape me.

FOLLOW UP ON THE NUMBER OF MAZE PIECES OK. I did the laborious test
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and am willing to confirm that there are eight maze pieces arranged in four pairs as I surmised. There are five pieces that you can see at one time if you count the one in the rotation cradle in Hunrath but there are three others that you cannot see, presumably buried underground in Hunrath's sandstone. The pairs that I came up with are #1 90-degree bend paired with 135-degree bend, #2 straight section paired with 90-degree bend, #3 another straight section paired with a 90-degree bend, #4 135-degree bend paired with straight section
I do not know if this holds true with every play-through but would guess that it does. I also do not know if this will clarify things or muddy them more.

I' think I'll go and try another play-through to see if I can do it without looking at my sketchy notes.

Re: The Gauntlet and the Maze

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:48 pm
by belford
In every other case in the game the swapping is bidirectional and can be repeated over and over but this one can't be.


Not true. There are swap pairs with a seed machine on both sides, and there are swap pairs with a seed machine on just one side. The machine follows you when you swap, of course; you never *arrive* in a machine-less sphere.

The Soria jump is an example of a one-sided jump, but there are several others. The most obvious is the sphere on the Hunrath rotator rig.

Re: The Gauntlet and the Maze

PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:44 am
by Magic88889
The stated logic of the game is that there are two different spherical parts which get exchanged when a seed is prodded by the machine. If this is true, shouldn't there be a piece out in some location, which we may or may not be able to see, for each rotating piece in the maze? We can see five pieces but that doesn't account for the other three spheres which balance out the equation.


I think you're misunderstanding how the swap seeds work. They are tied to a location (supposedly where they are first activated), not another seed. Another seed is often placed in the "destination" so that swapping back and forth is possible, but it is not required.

In the case of the maze, each seed on the maze swaps between the site in Hunrath, and the starting point of the maze. So there are only 5 pieces, the 4 currently in the maze, and the one in the Hunrath site.

Re: The Gauntlet and the Maze

PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:42 am
by Mac_Fife
Yes, or to put it another way, you move the rotatable piece into the sphere that is swappable, rather than each piece having its own swapping seed/sphere.

Re: The Gauntlet and the Maze

PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:01 am
by MystBodger
Hey Mac, it's been a long time...

I have to disagree with you about the movable pieces. If you go and look at any rotation of the overall maze and
[Reveal] Spoiler:
compare what you see in the maze with what is sitting in the rotating cradle you will find that they are different in every case as per the list I posted previously but you need to avoid the swapper in the active sphere for obvious reasons. You will also find that there is a functional swapper in both the accessible Hunrath sphere and the basement of maze.
I ran through the combinations and it all seems to work out for me but I invite anyone to go back and repeat the experiment - it takes a bit of time going up and down and swapping and then backtracking to look at both ends but keeping a chart helps.

Re: The Gauntlet and the Maze

PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:21 am
by Mac_Fife
Actually, I don't think we're disagreeing. Yes, at any point in time, the shape in the "active" position in the maze and the shape in the Hunrath cradle will always be different. And therein lies the "trick" to solving this puzzle. But the original suggestion was that each shape in the maze had its own swappable alternate, which isn't the case.

Re: The Gauntlet and the Maze

PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:56 am
by belford
Or to say it more simply: there's only one straight piece, but it can be found "paired with" any of the original four bendy pieces depending on how you manipulate the puzzle. That's what you're seeing.

Re: The Gauntlet and the Maze

PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:58 am
by MystBodger
According to my laboriously-derived list of pairs
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they seem to be pretty solidly tied together which would suggest to me that the logic of the game means it to be that way and that, absent magic, if the worlds were real there would be eight spheres in four pairs. I've only partially re-run the long test but so far my pairing theory seems to be holding. That leaves me with three 90-degree pieces, three straight pieces, a left 135-degree and a right 135-degree piece. Of course, in the world of game programming there aren't really three straight pieces, just one image that can be used as desired, and the left and right pieces could even be the same but mirrored in software with everything like present position and rotation stored in a structure along with a pointer to the image. Guess, in the overall scheme of things it doesn't matter but it could be useful to know that if you swap one sort of 135 you get a 90 and the other sort gets you a straight
so the effort to map the pairings isn't wasted.

Guess we'll just agree to disagree about the deeper meaning of this part of the game. As always in Cyan games the puzzle is a real Rube Goldberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rube_Goldberg_machine affair and the deeper(?) meaning is not always clear.

PS. Looks like you are having far better weather there in the north than we are here in the eastern US where we are freezing our arses off with it only now getting up to 2 degrees today after going to around -8 last night. If it starts to snow tonight I may just skip the game, light a fire and tackle the last of that Ileach cask-strength single malt I brought home in 2012. Sláinte!

Re: The Gauntlet and the Maze

PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:17 pm
by Magic88889
Again, the seeds are not paired, or at least not in the way you are suggesting. There are a few examples in the game where a swap seed is not paired with another. There are several in Maray, the one in Soria, and these link to both Hunrath and Kaptar.
Think the rock bridge you have to swap in to advance in Maray. There is only one seed, and that is on the Maray side (or the Hunrath side after the swap).
What about when that Mofang swaps into Maray at the end and attacks? Did the Villein just leave a seed right there for them to conveniently move in and attack, right past all the defenses of the Gauntlet? How does that make any sense after all the effort to protect everyone from them?

Plus, having 4 separate pairs makes no sense for the maze. Where do those other pieces go? Do they magically swap themselves out in the Hunrath site when you rotate the maze? How does rotating the maze in Maray even affect anything in Hunrath?
The whole point of the maze is that the pieces are not in their correct locations, and have to be moved into them. This is accomplished by swapping the piece you need to Hunrath, rotating the maze so the correct location for that piece is at the starting point, and then swapping the piece in place.
Honestly, I don't know how you managed to solve the puzzle without realizing that.

Re: The Gauntlet and the Maze

PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:55 am
by Mac_Fife
Bodger, I have to say I'm unconvinced, although I'll concede that I haven't done the extensive inspection that you have. My logic here is that while the maze provides a means to move a different piece into the swapping sphere, no such mechanism (that we can see) exists in Hunrath. Besides, even if there were, we have no evidence that any action in one world (other than the swapping of spheres by activating an ambassador seed) will change anything in another.

Consequently, I believe there are precisely 5 pieces - the four you can see in the maze, plus the one in the Hunrath cradle. I'm not sure of your exact test sequence, but you'd need to make sure that after each check on what's in Hunrath that you reverse any swap before moving on to the next piece in the maze.

P.S. I drove home from my son's wedding on Monday night with the temperature at -2C and drove home from work on Wednesday at +15C. Crazy weather.

Re: The Gauntlet and the Maze

PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:15 am
by MystBodger
Magic88889 wrote:...Honestly, I don't know how you managed to solve the puzzle without realizing that.


Actually, I've played through the game six times and have been through the gauntlet and maze five times successfully having quit on the first play after getting myself into a bind that I couldn't work out how to escape. Maybe it is just instinct but the maze has always seemed to be pretty simple, if time-consuming, to get through. Who knows? I think that I'll just drop this for now. Maybe it is just bad perception and logic on my part. For a game it probably isn't worth sweating over at my age.

Re: The Gauntlet and the Maze

PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:20 am
by MystBodger
Mac_Fife wrote:...P.S. I drove home from my son's wedding on Monday night with the temperature at -2C and drove home from work on Wednesday at +15C. Crazy weather.


P.P.S. My congratulations to you and your son and the rest of your newly-enlarged family. At least one extra partier for hogmanay!